Alex Kraft speaks about selling and various items that are critical to a start up business

It was kind of interesting. I've moved across the water. I'm in California today, and you move a few miles and you have trouble getting things set up. What what provoked you to get into or talk about or write about positioning?

Getting traction as a startup is difficult, isn't it? How do you get your voice heard?

Yeah, they call it pioneering. You know, if you use that as your analogy, the pioneers go up before anybody else and, you know, look at the dangers that they face. That was life and death stuff. And then, you know, the settlers come up behind. Now that you've broken the ground, now that you've proved concept, you know, proof of concept is one of those things that's critical. And I think you mentioned this, that you have to win one client at a time. And it's, you know, positioning yourself out there. You're trying to satisfy the needs and wants and desires of the customer. You're trying to satisfy the expectations that they have. And they really don't know what their expectation is of the services you're providing, do they?

Yep.

What's interesting that you're pointing at is, In America, and I think in a lot of the Western world, we've had a delay of a generational transition in our institutions, in our businesses, in our schools, in our governments. Because longevity is here, people, because of the nature of work changing, we're not worn out at 55 like we used to be with my grandfather or 65 like we were with my father. As a result of that, the generation that's leading things, they're risk averse. They're status quo protectors. And I come to find out that biologically, our brain loses its capacity to adapt as we get older, which my daughter, who's a teacher, that's part of the learning process that teachers go through, how you have to adapt to different age groups. But the younger generations, there's an argument about my grandsons that alphas, some people are just changing it and looking at different terms like Y.

But we got Gen X, Gen Z, the younger millennials and those folks, they want to change. That's your audience. That's the people that are, they're going to try things. I remember when we started product support selling, the first Caterpillar dealer to do it, I think it was 1970. And we looked for people that had good writing. because they had to make quotations. And the company said, well, you got to write a quotation because we don't know that you got the business. We think the shingle sells, not you. And then as we evolved a little bit further, the companies started hiring more people. And I used to tease and say, yeah, well, that's fine. We'll give them the keys to the truck customer list and point to the door and say, go sell. And very rarely did they get training. So here you got younger folks that are told to, Be patient. This is how it works.

The people they look up to have been doing it successfully for years and they have a book of business and they don't really remember what pioneering is like. And you come with a tool, the older folks don't need that. That's fine. And the younger folks are conflicted. And then we come into there's different personalities. There's those that are going to change no matter what the heck it is. They're always asking, why the heck do we do it this way? How can we do it better? And that's a small portion of your audience, the population. And your audience lives off that 10%, I think. I think your business requires a critical mass of that change-ready group before it'll get market acceptance.

want more, who want newer. The other thing that that points out is that the success of the dealership is directly tied to the comfort level of the salesman. Once they get to a point of satisfaction, that's the end. They don't go for more market share. They don't go for more business. It's just, I'm good. I'm okay. Yeah.

Sure, it's fine. But if we take that and extend it and we go to the sales position being commission only, Can you advocate or can you see dealers doubling their sales force because it doesn't cost them more? And in order to get more market share or more business, they have to have more feet on the ground?

Yeah, the podcast that Metz and I did with Stephanie Smith from Newman Tractor was astounding to me in a couple of ways. One was she called her salesman. in the old days, walking brochures, and how that is no longer necessary because another phrase, we're in the golden age of information. You want a question, go to Google, ask the question, and you'll get an answer. And all of that works very well tied into the circumstance

If you're changing, and this is, again, Stephanie, and it's a post I think I put up, or if not, it's coming up, that we have to fail faster. And then the context became somebody's going to a website. Somebody's using the Internet. Somebody's using technology. And we just changed this on our website. And we use the same. terminology. How can we help you? And if they click on that, we give them a short index to what are you looking for? A class, an assessment, a lecture, which department is it, et cetera, trying to make it easier for customers. Because what you're doing is you're taking all the noise away. Somebody's looking to buy something and you're broadcasting that to the universe of your subscribers, call it members, customers. And then letting them choose whether they want to, using your word, help.

Well, it's like you're saying the choice of words is interesting. When you bring the term up quotation, that implies work.

Oh, but it's still work versus health.

Yeah, and it ties back into being able to attract employees as well. One of the things that this has been, you know, the last year or so has been called is the great resignation. And, you know, there's articles this last week that that's now happening to the executive office in the U.S. government, the White House. There's an awful lot of people leaving. And the people that are leaving are the young people. And Sonia Law coined the phrase, which I like a lot better, the great reshuffle. Employees looking for better opportunities. Right. And then looking at Gallup as to why, what's the reason, what's the cause that people are leaving? And they, at vast majority,60,70,80% of the people are saying, I wasn't engaged. The company didn't engage me in anything.

Yeah. And then, you know, that's an inspiration is is is a wonderful way to look at it again using the word help. That's creating value. It's allowing the employee to feel value in the transaction. It doesn't depend on the company anymore. It's all personal. And that then, to some people, that's scary. I don't know if I'm going to be able to perform. Sure. And especially young people, which goes back to the fail faster. Don't be afraid to make mistakes. Right. It doesn't matter. You know, I think the illustration I used was, My boss at one point found me in the warehouse and he came out and he puts his arm around my shoulder and says, I'm really disappointed in you. I said, me too. What are you disappointed in? And you could see him literally didn't know what to do with that kind of a smart answer. But it's true. The trick with everything you're doing and helping people is recognizing a need in a different way.

The salesman going around with the term prospecting. is really passe unless you're a startup like yourself. And that's where positioning comes in. And you had to do research. You had to fail. You had to change your language. You had to change your approach. You had to change the prospects in order to make progress. Correct.

At one point, this is a long while ago, but at one point I offered and created a service where I'd go out and evaluate salesmen. And I would travel with guys two or three days. And the company would tell people what was coming up and what I was trying to do and all the rest. And they'd all give me their customer lists. And then we'd go off and we'd start at six or seven in the morning and boom, boom, we got a day, a typical day and away you go. And so the first day I'd let everything go and the salesman would take me wherever he wanted and everybody was really supportive of the salesman. So I got the customer list in my hand. The second day I would say, this guy's pretty close, right? Let's go visit him. Now the salesman got flustered. He didn't, well, wait a second. That's not part of my routine here. Well, what routine is that? Well, I wanted to introduce you to specific customers. And I said, that's fine.

Let me go see somebody that you didn't want to introduce me to. And it was a completely different call to be expected, right? And if you're trying to evaluate salesmen, what's the measure? That's the next piece of this puzzle. Is it sales revenue? I don't think so.

Is it market share? Perhaps.

Is it what they call? Last month, there were 80 machines sold in my territory. And I had calls on all 80 of them. Or 60.20 machine sales took place last month and I wasn't involved. Didn't know anything about them. We still have struggles that way. Again, because we're kind of stuck with the model, aren't we?

Yeah, it's, you know, and if you look at the automotive market and go back over, you know, the last 50,70 years, the change. A dealership used to be single brand. You were a GM dealer, you were a Ford dealer, you were a Chrysler dealer, whatever. Today, they're all multiple brands. Correct. There was a gentleman by the name of Dieter Esch who tried to do that in the equipment world. And he stated it was or he defined it as we're creating a tent. And Blackwood Hodge was the largest distributor in the world. And he was running Canada for Blackwood Hodge when he put that in. And Blackwood Hodge doesn't exist anymore because the market wasn't ready for that change. And there was no fallback position. So the articulated truck, let's use that as an illustration. Volvo purchased a company called Champion, which had a Canadian legacy. You know, it was the largest market share motor grader for the longest time. In North America anyways.

And they no longer exist. Correct. So the challenge, if we don't adapt and adjust, and that was also one of your blogs, adaptability, and that plays back to ego also. This is what I'm comfortable with. This is what I'm used to. This is what I've got good at. I don't want to jeopardize that. Young people don't care.

helping a lot. It's a wonderful way of saying it, isn't it, Alex? I'm not trying to defend my position. I'm not trying to protect anything. I'm trying to create. Correct. And if the young people don't do that, we're in trouble. Yeah.

What's fun about it to me, I think, in the communication, you know, is every time I talk to people, and typically they're younger than me now, which is a bad statement, but I get energized by it. Because people come up with things I'd never thought of, I'd never dreamt of. And I've been around a long time. You'd think I'd be knowing a little bit more. But it's, you know, the challenge in life is how do you turn over that new stone? What's the next thing?

Yeah, I think you're right. That self-improvement was trying to achieve our potential. And it's hard for people to change the. The learning business.

I won't hold that against you.

Like go for it. As a Philadelphia Eagle fan, you're a member of the movie Invincible with Mark Walbers. Of course. Dick Vermeule is the coach. And, you know, it's, yeah, what are we doing? And you and I have talked about this in the past. You know, everybody bemoans the fact that customers aren't loyal anymore. And I keep asking the question, and you coined it, you know, how are we enhancing the customer experience? What are we doing to make people loyal?

One of our classes is called You Make It Matter. And it's it's trying to get people to think about the fact that in their job they become indispensable. to the customers, to their co-workers, to the vendors, et cetera. And they have to have enough knowledge, you know, something really personal. And I don't want to spend too long, but my granddaughter is graduating today from university. She's 20 years old, getting a bioengineering degree. She's a smart kid. Her younger brother is a junior. Her brother, only one of them. He's a junior, just finished. And he got a 3.8. GPA as a junior. He's wanting to take astrophysics. And I said, gee, that's good. And he said, well, I'm starting a physics class over the summer. I said, why are you doing that? He says, well, I want to improve my grade point. I said, well, isn't 3.8 good? He said, my ego will not allow that.

And I stopped and I You know, I was trying to think of how many 16-year-olds think that way.

And it's a reflection of the fact of society today. And you're looking right down the throat of it with Heath. It's a very valuable tool. Amazon looked down the throat of bookshops, bookstores, and radically changed it. You're radically changing the selling process. One of these days, it's going to get traction and then you're going to get competition. And that'll be interesting because the guy, you know, it's the old adage of the dog sled, right? The only one that's got a half decent view is the leader of the pack. And I'm not going to talk about what the rest of them see, but, you know, when you get out there and you're in front, you're going to have to accelerate the pace. You're going to have to reinvent different things. You have to add, it's kind of like a restaurant comes out. McDonald's, terrific. They sell more chicken today than they do beef.

It's rather intriguing. And then, you know, another little symptom of time, I don't know if people notice this, but the packaging with inflation has changed. It's no longer 32 ounces for a buck. It's 28. I didn't change the price, but that subtlety gets caught. The older salesmen are going to see the younger salesmen succeeding with Eve, and they're going to start wanting to get on board. And that's going to be exciting. So the winning one at a time or the winning every day, the perception is going to change. And then it's kind of hang on because this is going to get rough. It's exciting.

It goes back to your use of language again. Can I help? Because CarMax and TrueCar and all the rest of the different internet-based processes for cars was a response to the fact, well, it's a sad, it's my weekend. I don't want to spend it down at the car dealership. And it's going to be three or four hours, blah, blah, blah. I can do it in five minutes tonight,10 minutes tonight. The car gets delivered tomorrow. I have a test drive. I like it. I can pay for it online. They give me a trade-in value. So now the car dealer, well, come on down. We can do this in 30 minutes. And they're hawking, they're presenting, positioning their business. Now they said, well, you can look at all of the different colors. interior options, et cetera, not just make a choice when you don't really know what you're choosing. And we're again, positioning, finding differentiators, competitive advantages to help.

And it's perception and ego that get in the way.

Well, the other thing is that you have to have some recognition individually, personally, that you're creating value. If you don't have that, you're not going to be passionate about it. You're not going to fight about it. It's like any athletic. It's the fourth quarter. It's five minutes to go in the game or whatever the heck it is. It's the last five yards. And I'm tired. Yeah. You know, well, don't give up now, darn it. It's nearly over. Give it a, you know, kick it in. Let's go. It's an exciting time. And he is, it's reflective of who you are, Alex, as somebody who isn't locked into a position, as scars from actually doing the work yourself, you know what it's like. You've done it. And here's a tool I wish I had when I was selling.

You know, and I think that's probably what the germ of the idea was.

The point counterpoint is pain and pleasure and they're the same, but there's a, you know, you know, I read like a maniac and. The Greek gods in mythology are kind of interesting. There's a Greek god called Tantalus, whose name is the word, created the word tantalizing. And the myth is he died and went to hell. And he's in hell, but he's got all manner of fruit trees, apples and mangoes and papaya and anything he wants. But every time he goes to reach for it, they go further and further away. They're tantalizing him, but they're always out of reach. And you have to drink in order to survive. And he's surrounded with beautiful rivers with fresh water. But every time he goes to take a drink, the river gets further away. And the point of the myth is he's dead. He needs neither water nor fruit. He doesn't. He's dead. The pain and pleasure conflict, what is it we're trying to do?

And what we're trying to do, and I love the way that you created or presented it earlier, positioned it earlier in the discussion. It's words. How can I help? Not give me a quote.

That's even nasty.

That's not fair. You're telling me, whoa, I don't want to help somebody? What? That's right.

common in life. My wife has become gluten allergic, so we have to find gluten free food. It is a challenge. Yeah.

life. It's life. You know, I think you and I have talked about it, but one of the guys that I worked with very early in my career was a man by the name of Ian Sharp. He was from Britain. He created a company called IP Sharp Associates, and when he decided he was going to sell, Reuters bought it. So one of the largest news companies agencies in the world bought this small internet-based technology company. And then Reuters recognized inside what they had, and they sold one piece of that company, and that became Bloomberg. So those $25,000 terminals that there's hundreds of thousands of around, and Reuters is still using Ian's products. That's phenomenal. Now, there's a beautiful example here. Somebody like you. Started out in the fringe of thinking and connected every single financial institution, stock market, all major in the world over the Internet.

I did a quote, Alex, at one point for the Colombian government with some people in Texas where we were going to computerize their justice system. So we take all of the criminal records, everything, and put it up onto a computer. And as part of our quotation, I went to the World Bank and got biographies of each of the ministers of the government. And we included that in the quote. And the response the guys in Texas got is, wait a second, where'd you get this information? That's all proprietary. That's private information. You can't have that stuff. And we had to dance for a while. And, you know, it is public information, darn it, when you submit it to different agencies, customers, the man wanting to Kubota. Terrific. My child is now wanting to learn how to ride a bicycle. Okay, what's the safest bicycle for me to buy for that four-year-old, whatever the age is? My granddaughter walks three miles each way to school every day.

Why can't we get her a motorized bike? Or look at the little... Personal transportation items, one wheel you stand on and away you go. I mean, I'd be on my tea kettle so quickly, it'd be unbelievable. But it's satisfying a need. It's breaking through a barrier. It's trying to help some sector of society, some segment of society. I think that's the history of mankind. You know, we strive to change. Otherwise, we'd continue to crawl, wouldn't we? Yeah. We're competitive. We want to succeed. And we want to help people. Human nature. Where are you going to go next?

bringing in more

I agree with you 100%. In fact, we're in the service world today. We're not in the product world. The services that you're providing to the market is facilitating a sales transaction, facilitating people finding a device that they need to buy or rent. You're making it easy for the buyer. You're making it easy for the seller. And you're providing, okay, some financing. You've got some transportation. Those are services. And those services are going to keep on. We're going to be in the service business, not the product business forever. And I don't know where we go from here, but it is astounding. And it's the pain, pleasure, conflict. When you say our goals, our objectives, I say it's your purpose. And that becomes much more personal. It's a better word, I think. You know, I'm excited for you. I think what you're doing is leading edge and bleeding edge, whatever you want to call it. And I'm pleased to see the success you're having.

And I really like, personally, I enjoy watching the evolution in what you're writing about with the blogs. And it's amazing how well they're received because they're very timely and appropriate. Adaptability, when you were talking about that. positioning is an evolution in that process, isn't it?

Yeah. You have to find out what it is that turns you on. What gets your juices running with me is seeing the lights go on in people's head. You know, when their eyes light up, geez, I got it. Or I love trying to distill something down to the simplest form that somebody who's listening to a talk or a presentation or a lecture can say, geez, I'd never thought about it that way.

I'd like to think so, but that's a matter of contention at times. They use the term lecture. I really don't like the term, Alex. Here we go to words. I call them lessons. Lessons learned. And it's you don't want to learn the lesson through pain by putting your hand on the stove when it's hot or through pain by crossing the street because you didn't look both ways and getting hit by a car. So it becomes an interesting circumstance. It's like developing technology in the old days. You had to define every single character of print on a line that was 132 characters across. You had to tell the printer, don't print anything here. Imagine that. And that's not that long ago. Today, you tell the computer what you want to do orally and verbally, and it's done. Here we go. They helped. They make the process better.

There's an artificial intelligence example now where You know the story about Big Blue defeating Kasparov, the best chess player in the world at the time. And what IBM did at that time was to take every game that had been played that was recorded and put it into the computer. And because of that, the computer was faster looking at different options than Kasparov. And at the end of the day, they beat Kasparov all the time. Well, there's a new form of artificial intelligence. It didn't load any game. It just loaded the moves of each piece. And it let the computer... make the determination of what the move should be, which was aimed at the purpose of the game, which was to capture the king. That artificially intelligent chess computer program has never been beaten. Never, not once. And it had never experienced a game in its history. Imagine that.

We're getting really close with artificial intelligence that we're Here's an operation diagnostic medically as an example. Diagnostic tools on equipment with sensors and telematics and lifecycle management, all this stuff.

Same principle. You know, it's wild. I've told you about my friend Jim Magriff, who's got patents pending on controlling the computer screen with his eyeball. Won't need a keyboard. Oh, my goodness. So people that are like Stephen Hawking did. Couldn't use his arms. He could use his eyes. Blink, blink. Here we go.

As usual, it's a pleasure. And I really, really appreciate that blog. I appreciate all your blogs. But the one on positioning and how you have to park your ego and how important words are and how manipulative you have become by saying, would you like to help?

How do you want to wrap this up?

And that'll be endless. That's always going to be true, isn't it? Every

If you're 1030 at night and

And if you think about that, there's something wrong with that. At 1030 at night, everybody's hanging around their computer looking for business. You know, it's even worse when you're dealing internationally. I got people in Sweden that, you know, or Tokyo, or they're calling me at two in the morning, wondering how come I'm not answering the phone.

pretty good. Thank you. As usual, it's been a pleasure and I've learned a lot in this discussion. And I hope everybody who's listening is in the same opinion. And I look forward to our next chat. I look forward to your next blog. And to everybody out there, I hope that you helped, that this helped you in some way. And I look forward to you being with us in the next Candid Conversation. Mahalo. Thank you for listening to our podcast. We appreciate your support. Should you have any thoughts or comments, please don't hesitate to contact us at www. learningwithoutscars. com. The time is now. Mahalo.