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Learning Without Scars

Learning Without Scars

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    Learning Without Scars
    S3 E4•February 15, 2023•39 min

    Alex Kraft brings us up-to-date on his technician program on Heave

    Send us Fan Mail (https://www.buzzsprout.com/1721145/fan_mail/new) Alex and I talk about his app on iOS and Android that matches technicians with customers needing repairs and maintenance. Launched a mere six weeks ago we hear how this is doing in the market. Don’t miss catching up on this wonderful solution to a major problem. Visit us at LearningWithoutScars.org (https://www.LearningWithoutScars.org) for more training solutions for Equipment Dealerships - Construction, Mining, Agriculture, Cranes, Trucks and Trailers. We provide comprehensive online learning programs for employees starting with an individualized skills assessment to a personalized employee development program designed for their skill level.

    Transcript

    0:21

    Aloha, and welcome to another Candid Conversation. Today we're joined by Alex Kraft, and he's going to give us an update on the happenings within Heave, his business to put customers and buyers of equipment together. But if you recall, our last podcast, Alex introduced his app available on Apple and Samsung. Alex, how about you bring us up to speed when happening? And, you know, I like that nice white background with your fresh haircut.

    0:55

    That's right. It's good to be now. I think I can call myself a recurring guest now, right?

    1:01

    Yes, sir. Absolutely.

    1:03

    All right.

    1:03

    A favored recurring guest. Perfect. Anybody over 6 '2", I have to pay attention to, you know.

    1:11

    We've got a new office. I'm overlooking a marina now. It's nice. White background. Things are popping. So I appreciate you having me on. And, you know, we worked hard for a couple of years on the online rental and purchasing procurement. And, you know, I wrote today that we were making progress with it. But in my gut, it just wasn't taking off like we had hoped. And even though we were helping rent and sell equipment, and so in my gut, I felt like it was, we were helping what was an inconvenience more than what some people, I like the phrase hair on fire problem, even though I don't have hair. But, and so, yeah, I mean, we were making it easier to rent and buy equipment. But, you know, at one point, as some people pointed out, it was still getting done. And yeah, it was an inconvenience, but we just weren't, you know, we were struggling to, to, to find those kinds of like wow moments with it.

    2:31

    And so we had some tough conversations internally and we went back out and talked to customers more and we asked them, you know, what is the biggest pain point that you have? And every it's, it's not,52% reply. It was 100%. It is service. It is, you know, people reference a tech shortage, lack of skilled labor, longer lead times for dealers to get out there, high labor rates, parts availability, you know, all of these things go under the umbrella of service. And so we, And we kind of kicked around the idea of, you know, could we do something here? Could we solve this pain point? My first concern, frankly, was, are there enough technicians out there that have the diagnostic software that can offer a dealer type experience? Because we all know that electronics are playing a larger part in heavy equipment. A lot of people don't like that, but it's necessary.

    3:48

    And thankfully, and we're fortunate that when I started talking to technicians who are working independently in the market, every single one of them had software. Either they had the OEM branded software they acquired, I don't know how, when they were with the dealer. Or I found this company called Diesel Laptops, where they've built a business supplying laptops. first for on-highway trucks, and then now for off-highway for heavy equipment that can plug into any manufacturer's computers. And so my fear initially was I was able to kind of move past that. And then we started finding more and more technicians and onboarding them and then had the app built, rolled it out into the market. And we've been facilitating customer repairs now for... You know, a month and a half.

    4:45

    You know, you and I have talked about it, I think, in offline and also online, that the future for the equipment world is services. It isn't things. It's not machines. It's not parts. And monitoring equipment for customers is a service that is also lacking. But what you've stepped into with the recognizing the gap, have they got the software to do the diagnostics? Now, first of all, that means that I can be on the machine, but secondarily with telematics, I don't even need to be there. So I can be doing a fair amount of remote diagnostics as well. But with that circumstance and the pain point being backlogged, which is how dealers hold labor efficiency, and supposed shortage of technicians, and I say supportive because there isn't one, but everybody talks about one and makes them feel better.

    5:57

    That's right.

    5:59

    The customers are very rarely homogenous on their brand. So if I'm the cat dealer, Komatsu, Deer, Volvo case, and I'm going to hurt some people's feelings by leaving them out, but using those five, And one of my guys goes out to the customer. They're not able to look after other equipment. Right. Have you found that your guys are able to look after that in a different way?

    6:29

    Yes. The versatility of an independent technician is unmatched because you're right. If I call, if I have a cat machine down, the cat technician comes out, he fixes that. And guess what? Because of the backlog, he's immediately dispatched to another customer's job. That's just the way it works. And one of the huge wins that we had early on that I didn't necessarily think through the impact of was we had a cat excavator was down. Customer put it in through the app. Technician gets assigned, goes out there, fixes it. And then the customer says to him, hey, while you're here. On this job site, can you look at this John Deere wheeler? Sure. Looks at the John Deere wheeler and now what was one service call? He fixes two machines while he's there, maximum efficiency, and then is off. And so that's just something that, you know, the dealer can't do. You are limited to the one brand.

    7:34

    And it's a great overall service experience from the customer's perspective.

    7:41

    Yeah, and you see. well over a hundred bucks because they only have one trip.

    7:45

    That's right.

    7:46

    You know, it's, it's, it, it, it runs contrary to some of my thinking relative to maintenance, having specialists for maintenance, because I'm doing that off the hour, six to six type of thing, night, six evening, six morning. And anytime we had in the past, the technician go up and do maintenance, the customer always used to say, while you're here, I have a problem with this machine. Can you fix it for me? And, you know, when we sent journeyman out, he can do that. So we sent journeyman out. But what that did was it meant that our rate was our standard repair rate when the competition was maintenance rates, which is half of that. Right. You know, so it's a really interesting gig. How have the technicians responded to you?

    8:32

    They've loved it. There's, which is a big difference between what we're doing prior to service. And this drove me crazy because it doesn't make sense to me, but I'll still, I'll take the L on it. What I couldn't believe was when we had the sales and rental procurement tool, salesmen weren't telling anyone that they were using it. Like they wouldn't tell another sales rep that was within the same dealership. They weren't competing. They had different territories. There's no risk of like losing business. But they just wouldn't tell anymore. And I think maybe, you know, if you break down the psychology of it, it's well, maybe the dealership will think that I'm expendable because if they find out that I'm getting a lot of deals through this, you know, technology company, they'll just fire me and then they'll just my job will be replaced. I don't know. But they weren't telling anyone with the technicians has been complete opposite.

    9:33

    Obviously, they know that it's their skills that. are the most important. Like we're not going to, we have no chance of replacing technicians, but they love that we are, we're solving two big problems for their two biggest problems, frankly, is number one, finding new work. Every independent guy that you talk to, they have the same profile. They most, more than likely they started at a dealership and then decided to go on their own. And so Typically, they will work on the same customers that they used to service their equipment when they were at the dealership. But they have a small book of business. And so they, in order to get new customers, it's all word of mouth or they're driving just like a salesman. They're putting a business card on a piece of equipment. So that's the first problem we solve right away. There is a steady flow of customer repair requests that come through our app. They see it.

    10:33

    They see who the customer is, what the issue is, the machine, and then where it's located. So they can choose to answer whichever request they want. And then the second piece that we solve for them is payment. So the technician invoices Heave. When the work is complete, we invoice the end-use customer. So now we eliminate the accounts receivable function for them. We just pay them. We pay them quickly. With those two things in practice, technicians have been telling other technicians about us.

    11:07

    Yeah, the same thing is true with customers. Customers will be telling other customers because they've all got the same problem.

    11:14

    That's right.

    11:15

    You know, it's weird, Alex. The labor market share at OEM dealers, and it's going to vary, but if you hit 15% market share in labor, you're doing well. The best in class might be as high as 30. And that's down considerably over the last 10,20,40 years. But nonetheless, that means 70% to 85% of the available labor in the market is not being looked after by an OEM dealer that sold the machine. The rental selling facilitation, it's probably ahead of its time. That might be something that is not going to be responded to by salesmen, but by brand dealers or down the road a piece, manufacturers. Because I'm not sure what the future of a distributor or dealer looks like.

    12:15

    Yeah, I'm not sure either.

    12:17

    The mechanic, they're always going to be needed. Repairs and maintenance is always going to be present and it's not going to be done by robots. And it's kind of, I think you and I spoke about it. There was a case a month or two ago, I think I wrote about it, where a guy was in Atlanta, Georgia, and he had a serious heart condition and needed a surgeon. And the surgeon that was able to do that work was in the country on vacation about 100 miles away. And they got in touch with him, and he was prepared to come in, and he gets in his Bentley to drive, and about a half an hour along the way, his car breaks down. And he calls, finds a guy on Google and calls a mechanic. He's able to come out, he fixes the car, the doctor gets on, the patient lives, everybody's fine. And my question to that is, who do you think, the doctor or the technician?

    13:09

    So in the case where you've got, and you used to characterize it as Uber for technicians, which is Uber doesn't do anywhere near as much good in the market as what you're doing for clients. We're dealing with, you know. hundreds of thousands of dollars of pieces of equipment. It's going to be something that is going to take off everywhere. What are the impediments to your growth?

    13:37

    That no one has asked me. You hit me with a question that I...

    13:44

    Sorry, I'll back up the tape.

    13:48

    No, I mean, it's finding enough technicians to handle the demand would be the first thing off the top of my head. That would be an impediment. You know, there are resources to better qualify technicians. You have some of those as well available that I think we're going to leverage. You know, we're going to start. We're starting in a certain area. We're starting in Florida. So we can manage the expectations and develop the playbook that we can roll out in other markets. But we've been building a wait list in other markets just to gauge how many technicians we can onboard that are interested in trying out HEAVE in other key areas of the country. So we always have our eye in other places.

    14:39

    Have any of the technicians come back and made suggestions to you as yet on what they want to see?

    14:46

    Yes. A couple of guys early, and I love that too, because it shows that they're engaged. They're thinking through it. So, you know, one guy was asking about like being able to, you know, take the job notification and have it speak to his Google calendar. We have that functionality, which is great. You know, if you click on a link, it gives you the direction straight from your phone to the job site where they have to go. Where we'd like to be in the not so distant future is I'd mentioned that the technician invoices us. I would like to give them the software within the app where it's just all right there and it helps them invoice us even faster because that ultimately means a faster invoice to the customer, which everyone likes. So we've had some suggestions along those lines already.

    15:45

    Yeah, and on those, we need to talk offline because there's people and services that can. you can tie into that. How about the customers? Are they giving you ideas as well?

    15:58

    We've had some, yes, which we are working on. We've started with non-warranty repairs, but there's no reason why it has to remain that way. That will be fun because we want to be able to complete any kind of repair. We've had customers ask, and offer suggestions about certain products. Like, hey, can you have guys who do on highway? So now a customer can go to one place, regardless of brand or type of equipment. Hey, do you have crane technicians? Hey, do you have road technicians? Can I get a guy to repair a forklift? So a lot of suggestions have been about type of product.

    16:47

    Has anybody in the rental industry approached you to look after repairs in the field?

    16:53

    So interestingly, so no one from the rental industry, but some of the independent technicians who are on our site have done work for rental companies. And also a couple of guys have been hired by dealers, funny enough, to do some of their internal. So, but not, we haven't had a rental company reach out to us yet.

    17:17

    When we originally talked about this, you were thinking that perhaps customers who had their own mechanics were going to put their own mechanics up there as well. Has that happened as yet?

    17:28

    It hasn't happened yet, but I knew it was going to take some time. People have to warm up to the idea because I call it our crazy idea. And I've pitched it to a few customers. You can tell they sit back and they had never thought about it. And I'll use the words carefully because you were very careful when you introduced it as some say, I forget the exact words, but you said some say there's a tech shortage, which you disagree with. But yes, so we think that we could introduce new supply of technicians to the overall market. By allowing contractors who have their own technicians on their payroll, if those guys aren't utilized, like there's a customer here in South Florida we've been working with, they have eight of their own technicians. And when we asked them, like, well, how often are they utilized? You know, there's not a specific percentage they told us, but there's a lot of idle time.

    18:30

    Well, if I'm paying those technicians, whatever, $30 an hour or $35 an hour. And six of the eight aren't working on something right now. How about I sub them out on the Heave app? And now there's six more technicians in the South Florida market who can fix something. And the way I approach it, too, is like I'll ask a customer who downloads our app, who puts something in. I'll ask him, hey, who's your biggest competitor in the market? If you're a utilities contractor, who's your biggest competitor? Oh, it's so-and-so. Hey, would you have an issue if your Komatsu excavator was down, if that contractor's technician worked on it? And it's something that they've never thought of before. They're like, you know, no, I wouldn't. As long as it gets fixed right, why would I care? It's like, exactly. Because right now, a lot of the time when they call in for field service on that Komatsu excavator, it's, hey, we're one to two weeks out.

    19:32

    Well, if we can get you somebody. You know, within 24 hours and he just works for your competitor. You know, isn't that overall a great thing? You've got your machine up and, you know, the contractor had an idle technician. You know, he just kind of paid for himself.

    19:52

    You know, a lot of these things are so far ahead of their time that it gets a little frightening. And statistically, it's true. And with data analytics and with artificial intelligence and the cloud and all this other stuff, some interesting truths are coming up. That customer retention for OEM dealers is directly related to the distance that the customer's job site is from the customer's place of business, the dealer's place of business. And the cost of facilities is so large that the dealers aren't going to be putting facilities out where it's convenient. If you look at Europe, they use tents. By tents, I mean like they have a DIA, the Denver airport. It's not really a tent, but it's a tent. As long as there's a slab and there's drainage, I can put up a tent and take it down, just follow the work. The technicians, the independents particularly, they can go wherever the heck it is, and the customer, the machine owner, doesn't really care.

    21:05

    how far away they are as long as they get the service they need because there is no backlog either for field or shop and that takes me to the next place have you got any mechanics that have their own shops

    21:17

    uh we do a few uh most of them are dedicated field service though right but we do have some who have their own shop i mean these guys it's it's a similar profile they love They have property. They have their own little shop. They love working on stuff. They love working on cars. They love working on their own stuff in their time off. So it's interesting to meet some of these guys.

    21:47

    When you say warranty, we all assume original equipment manufacturer warranty. Why are we even playing with that? Why don't we do... warranties with Lloyds, with Aon, with the top insurance carriers and say, to heck with that, I don't need warranty.

    22:09

    Yeah, it's a good question. When I say warranty, I'm talking about the third-party warranty companies. A lot of the OEMs offload their extended warranty to third-party providers after that first year. We used to sell, at Flagler, we'd sell a brand new Volvo L90 wheel loader. Typical extended warranty term would be three years. And it would typically be through EP &G or Glen General was another, or Amanta or Specialty, I think now. They're a big warranty provider as well. So a lot of those extended warranties in the market are not necessarily OEM branded. They're administered by someone else. And that's what we want to, I see us doing is be able to do repairs for those machines.

    22:57

    Customers can buy a machine without warranty.

    23:00

    Yes, they can.

    23:02

    And get a better price.

    23:04

    Yes, they can.

    23:06

    Warranty providers will seem to operate on a convention that they'll only pay, a warranty claim can only be paid by one party. That's not true. There's terms and conditions that would allow warranty to be paid by the OEM for the machine warranty as new. And the... insurance company, I'm going to call them that rather than a warranty company, the insurance company, if certain conditions exist. So if there's a failure in, say, the warranty period six months and there's a failure at four months, the warranty insurer will pay for that as well as the OAM. Have you explored that at all?

    23:54

    I have not. Not there. Not to that level yet.

    23:59

    Okay. The two big boys that underwrite. EPG and Glenn General and these other guys are Lloyds and Aon. So the big dogs in the fight. The guy that did the Lloyds underwriting for Caterpillar and John Deere and Komatsu is an old friend of mine. He did all his coding in DOS. He's one of these old dogs. But he changed the whole world of warranty because of how he underwrote it. Warranty needs to be redefined because if you think about warranty, there's no such thing as a machine failing other than defects. In short-term failure, that's going to happen. But whether it's three years, five years, seven years, why can't we have warranty 10 years long? Or the other side of that equation, there's no such thing as warranty. Natural wear and tear. You know, Johnny Bertone at Berco when he was alive. He sold them to America, I don't know, tens of millions of links, individual links, not link assemblies, individual links.

    25:12

    And he had five warranty claims, five individual link warranty claims. And he denied them all. And, you know, we're sitting talking, having a glass of Compari or something. And he said, these guys are crooked. I said, why? He said, well, think about it. I built four million of these links. And I've got five warranty claims in the last 12 months. Throw it away. You know, we have to revisit, and this is way too early, but we have to revisit what warranty is.

    25:47

    I agree.

    25:48

    Similarly, should there be a premium on response time? Customer's got a machine down. Dealer is going to take 48 hours to get there. Through HEAVE, the technician can be there in half a day. Is that worth more?

    26:12

    I think customers would say yes.

    26:16

    Do you see that day coming?

    26:19

    Definitely. There's a couple inherent advantages in running an independent network. This is one of them. We've seen this play out time and time again. So from the time that a customer submits a request, I need service on this machine. I'm located here. On average, we are getting a tech assigned to that job within 10 to 15 minutes. Here's the inherent advantage. The customer is talking directly to the technicians. And that is something that the dealer experience is. Customer has an issue, calls into a service department. You have to talk to a dispatcher. Dispatcher looks at the TV. Everybody brags about having the TV that shows all of their service trucks and everything. Well, the downside of that is that that person has to synthesize all this information. I have to see where these guys are located. I have to talk to them. I have to figure out where they are in their current job.

    27:25

    And then I have to take all that information and then be able to come up with a plan for this guy who just called. That's what takes so long. to get communication back about when you can have some more. And with running the independent network, and it's through an app, the customer speaks directly to the technician. And technicians, from what I've seen, the independent guys, they don't overpromise because they're the ones showing up face-to-face with the customer. And we've been able to get guys, hey, everybody's responding very quickly. and then they're working with the customer you know not every field service request is immediate 911 so we've had specific instances where you know they put in the request the technician gets assigned they talk right then and there and say hey you know i got a hydraulic leak but the machine we can still use it you know any if you can get out to me by wednesday morning that's fantastic But what I love is, so that's happened sometimes.

    28:27

    What I love is that the customer knows that someone is assigned and they know when that person is going to be there within 10 to 15 minutes of sending in the request. That does not happen with the dealer experience.

    28:41

    Not just that, though, Alex, it's personal. They can see the technician. Yes. At the dealership, the technician might not go back to that customer again. Your guy, if he's going to be successful, has to be able to go back again.

    28:56

    Yes. The other inherent advantage, right? You have to do good work because it's your brand. It's you as an independent guy. If you take too long, if you screw it up, there's no hiding behind that. The customer is not going to hire you. That's not the experience with the dealer, right? And so we want to have that Uber type. When the job is done, hey, rate the technician who just worked on this.

    29:26

    Now, are you doing that?

    29:28

    Yes, we are. We're doing it manually, building in the technology now. Like, I can't wait for six months from now for a customer to be on the app and see, oh, Robert Gray has performed 63 jobs on heave. Average rating 4.9 out of 5, you know. This customer says, quote, you know, Robert is super professional, showed up, you know, on time, you know, had this, had our excavator piece back together up around the same day or whatever. It's like, that's going to be really cool.

    30:03

    Make it less than six months.

    30:07

    Well, you know, these, these engineers, they always tell you, oh, it's really common. It's going to take us a while. We'll crack the whip a little bit.

    30:15

    That's why Silicon Valley has beds in the buildings. Because they don't let the engineers leave until things are done. You know, I think I've told you about the experience I had with, I'm at a dealership running data processing and I had two computers and they were both down. I had nine stores and I had a whole bunch of people from IBM floating around the building. You know, like the strategy they had was fill this guy with planes. You know, I stood on a desk and say, who here can fix this problem? And two hands went up. I said, the rest of you get out of here. That grading is going to help you immensely.

    30:54

    Definitely. I love it. It's going to be a really cool feature. And I can't wait. Whereas there's more repairs done and there's more ratings accumulated and you just, it will provide trust. It will provide. And also, I think it's going to help us, you know, kind of put people into buckets. I think you kind of alluded to this earlier. Ultimately, the vision, I think they're going to be pages where it's like, all right, I need a welder. OK, boom. Click on welding. Boom. Here are six guys in the area. You know, I want a PM tech. I want a crane tech. We've got a couple of crane techs already. You know, I want to. I need somebody who can do undercare. Here's the list of these guys. So it's exciting.

    31:40

    When a customer signs onto the app, do you give them any statistics about what's happened? Like this month, we had 7,219 calls. We responded in 22 minutes and fixed the problem within seven hours.

    31:58

    We do not showcase statistics yet, but we're starting to. Like on LinkedIn, we're going to start posting like daily. Hey, repair completed with some of those statistics. Technician assigned less than 10 minutes. Technician assigned five minutes. Time from request to finish repair,24 hours. And we're going to start highlighting a lot of that stuff.

    32:23

    You started with equipment, which I think is, you are right. It's a convenience. It's an aid. But it's ahead of its time. With the technicians, you're more in the last mile, what Amazon calls the last mile, and that's more critical. And you're seeing results. Rolling it out is going to be different. When are you going to start providing purchasing power to these technicians so they can buy tools and trucks, et cetera, through you, cheaper?

    32:53

    That is interesting. It's something I don't have necessarily a timeline. But that's something that we want to help because I think what we're going to be able to do is provide an opportunity for those that want to go independent, to go independent. And so that would be, hey, diesel laptops I'm building a relationship with. I was just on their Founders podcast last week. So they love our mission. They sell these. technician laptops. They sold, I think,75 million of laptops last year. So there's a natural partnership there where they will sell the laptop, technician invests to go in their own business, and then Diesel Laptop says, hey, oh, by the way, you just spent X thousands of dollars for this laptop. Here's a way that you can get more work. It's through the Heave app. You should sign up. Service truck vendors, I'm sure we could build relationships with service truck vendors where we can help.

    33:59

    I already have finance company relationships that used to finance equipment through our first product. So I've already had those conversations where they'd be happy to help underwrite service trucks for technicians who want to go out on their own. Absolutely. who are entrepreneurial themselves.

    34:25

    I think this is a hell of a deal. I'm really excited for you. I'm happy for you. And as I always say, anything I can do to help, don't be shy.

    34:36

    No, it is exciting. Thank you for your support.

    34:39

    Well, no, you deserve it. You've earned it. I think we've done a pretty good job of recapping where you're at now. Is there anything you want to close this up with?

    34:55

    No, you know, I think we got the full picture. You know, it's pretty, what I like about, you know, I mentioned we're solving a real problem. We are. What I love too is that it's such a clear value proposition. We are, we haven't talked about cost at all, but we are a cheaper alternative to dealer service. You know, so it's. Irrefutable. I will share one really good use case that happened a couple weeks ago that would not happen prior. Is that, you know, we had a customer who had a water truck down. They tried their hardest to fix it. They couldn't get it up. They put in the request. They had somebody, you know, the next morning. The guy responds right away. They scheduled it for the next morning. And he calls on the way. And they kind of give him the download. And he just knows it's going to be an easy fix. He's dealt with this before. So he gets out there. It took an hour. Got it up. Everything's working.

    36:01

    And they got an invoice for one hour and I think $75 for one way trip. They got a $230 invoice, which they've never had before. I'm sorry, but the OEM captive dealer experience is, all right, we're going to send this $175,000 truck to you. It's a four-hour minimum. It's $145 per hour of drive time. And then, oh, it's 83 miles. So that's at another $4.10 a mile. And there's like five line items. And the thing that customers say a lot is, well, damn, I mean, it's... It's $1,000 before you even touch my machine. And it doesn't have to be that way. And so what we want to do is be a service company. And a repair is just a repair. We want it to take one hour. We want customers to get up and running fast. We want to help facilitate that and then not overcharge and all the other nonsense.

    37:11

    You know, so no environmental charges, no shop supplies, no mileage charge, no minimum miles, blah, blah, blah, blah. All of that stuff. It's really, you're breaking down walls, you know. It's the independent mechanic. As you say, he starts, he's typically trained at a dealership. He works for people that he's already worked for. They know him. He knows them. Everything's fine. Six, eight, ten guys. But then they struggle because they don't know how to get additional business. You've knocked down that wall. The customer has a backlog that he has to deal with at the OEM. You've knocked down that wall. You've taken away all of the add-on charges. You've knocked down that wall. You're creating a situation where the customer is identifying and going to be scoring the skills and the experience that you're going to publish. You knock down that wall. That's not ever been done at an OEM dealer, to my knowledge.

    38:19

    It's customer-centric, buyer's needs, and you've got two buyers here. The dealer's only got one. So good on you, man.

    38:34

    It's exciting. It

    38:35

    is. And I'm going to close it there, Alex, and thank you. And I'm going to thank the audience for... listening into this, another Candid Conversation. I hope you're going to join us again in the near future at the next Candid Conversation. Mahalo. Thank you for listening to our podcast. We appreciate your support. Should you have any thoughts or comments, please don't hesitate to contact us at www. learningwithoutscars. com. The time is now. Mahalo.

    Alex Kraft brings us up-to-date on his technician program on Heave

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